JonArno Lawson: Wise Up!! Wise Down!

Nikki Gamble talks to CLiPPA shortlisted poet JonArno Lawson about his co-authored poetry collection (with John Agard) Wise Up! Wise Down!

Jon talks about why writing poetry excites him and his thoughts about performing poetry.

About Wise Up! Wise Down!

How can laughter be more powerful than a sword? Why do days have names but not weeks? And do pigeons ever get a craving for cake? Two friends, internationally acclaimed poets John Agard and JonArno Lawson, take us on an inspiring, hilarious and wonderous journey through poetry, asking questions and attempting answers as they discover that life really is a forever and ever adventure. 

Transcript

Nikki Gamble:

Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of In The Reading Corner. This episode is part of a special series celebrating the shortlisted titles for the CLiPPAPoetry Award. Today, my guest is John Arno Lawson, co-author with John Agard of the collection Wise Up! Wise Down!

JonArno Lawson is a Canadian poet and writer, and he has been a former guest on this podcast. Last time we were talking about wordless picture books. But JonArno is probably better known for his poetry. In 2007, he was awarded The Lion and Unicorn Award for Excellence in North American Poetry for his collection Black Stars in a White Night. Among his many publications is a fabulous book called Aloud in My Head, published by Walker Books (2015), in which 21 Poets discuss one of their poems and how they came to write it. One of the contributors to that book was John Agard.

Wise Up! Wise Down! is sensitively illustrated by Satoshi Kitamura. The illustrations provide an extra dimension without overpowering the words.

If I were to sum up the collection, I would describe it as two giants of children’s poetry riffing with each other, enjoying it, and just letting us share some of that delight.

I am thrilled to welcome JonArno Lawson to the reading corner today. Thank you for joining me.

JonArno Lawson:

Hi. Thank you for having me.

Nikki Gamble:

We’re going to start by thinking about reading poetry. I’m interested in where your interest in poetry started. Were you reading poetry as a child, or did that come later?

JonArno Lawson:

Reading children’s poetry came later. I remember my parents giving me Robert Louis Stevenson’s A Child’s Garden of Verses, which I actually really like now, but as a child, I found it very boring. I think what really caught my imagination as a child were folk songs and commercial jingles on television, and any sort of word play – like the Spider-Man theme song that had lines like, ‘Is he strong? Listen, bud, he’s got radioactive blood. It’s a really powerful image. The word play is so brilliant. I think The Wizard of Oz has a lot of songs like that, and West Side Story. I didn’t understand a lot of what I was listening to, but the West Side Story lyrics were fantastic. So I think that’s where I really got caught up in the magic of words. I loved musicals, but I wouldn’t at the time have thought of that as poetry. But looking back, I would say that’s what was happening.

Nikki Gamble:

I wondered whether you had at some point been a reader of classic nonsense verse like Lear and Carroll, although I know you’re coming out of a different tradition in North America/Canada. I’m mentioning British poets here, so there may be a different canon to the poems that we would be reading here.

JonArno Lawson:

It’s interesting. My father told me that his mother, who’s American, would recite Lewis Carroll rhymes to him in the 1920s. And so she would’ve discovered them around 1900. I think Lewis Carroll must have crossed over fairly early. I remember enjoying Alice in Wonderland in Canada. Probably the biggest children’s poet is Dennis Lee, who wrote a book called Alligator Pie that almost every Canadian kid would’ve encountered. But it came out in the mid-seventies, maybe just a little after I would have encountered it.

There are real differences by nation, almost more in children’s poetry than in any other form of poetry, I think. Even in English-speaking countries, you would think there would be more crossover. I think it’s because the accents and sentence melodies are different, and all of that’s so relevant to poetry.

I didn’t encounter Edward Lear until later. Tolkien, though, I just thought of thepoem of the Ring. Almost everyone knew those words. Sometimes, poems that appear in prose have great power, too.

Nikki Gamble:

The question I then come to next is, why do you write poetry? What’s in it for you?

JonArno Lawson:

That’s a good question. I don’t know. I think there’s an excitement about language, which again goes right back to when I was small, listening to these clever songs. So there’s something about it that I still feel excited when I encounter poetry, especially children’s poetry, maybe especially because there’s something playful, life-affirming, and concentrated about it.

It’s a funny thing, in good prose, you almost don’t notice the words because it’s the story that’s the main thing. And so, really good prose often takes a step back so the story can move forward. But with poetry, the words get equal billing with whatever it is they’re saying. And for whatever reason, that has always excited me.

Nikki Gamble:

I find that fascinating. I’ve read lots of definitions of ‘poetry’. It’s hard to pin down, but that’s a pretty good explanation.

Can you tell us a little bit about your writing process? Is it something that you do: sit down to write every day, or does something pop into your head, and you start noting it down? How does the magic come together?

JonArno Lawson:

Yeah, that’s a good question. I always had a scrap of paper on me to note things down. Being a poet is almost like being a detective. You’re listening, and then you hear someone use a phrase in a funny or an unexpected way, or an unusual sequence of words just happens in your own head. If you don’t write it down right away, it’s gone.

Then 15 years ago, I realised I had to have a better system. That’s when I found my notebook which doesn’t disintegrate in my pocket. I write down whatever it is I’ve heard or an idea, and then I expand it. So periodically, I’ll go back through the notebooks. Maybe 70 or 80% of it is just not useful. Once I return to an idea, I might find that it’s not as interesting as I thought it was. But usually in any notebook, there are one or two things that I can see how I might do something with it. And sometimes writing is very fast. I tend to write short things, so maybe it all comes out at once, but it can also take years. I’ll keep returning to something. And then, so that’s my system.

Nikki Gamble:

It seems to me that one of the best pieces of advice that you’re giving to anybody who might consider writing poetry is to get good at eavesdropping.

JonArno Lawson:

Yes. Treat it like you’re a detective.

Nikki Gamble:

How important is the performance element to you? Is that something that you consider at the point of writing? Are you imagining what this might sound like when it’s read aloud?

JonArno Lawson:

That’s such an interesting question. I was just talking about this with John, who was here in Toronto last week.

John and I performed from Wise Up! Wise Down! in Ireland last year. It was the first time we had performed together. John is a real performer. He’s born to the stage, and he has an amazing voice. He’s a very compelling presence. And I’m the opposite. I’m pretty introverted, and it was definitely frustrating for John because in his mind, he knows what to do. He knows how to grab the audience, and I was the dead weight. He didn’t say that, but afterwards he suggested, ‘You could try this, you could try that’.

One of the things I have found in presenting my books over time is that I can be very socially awkward, but that’s who I naturally am. And to be different from that is actually even more awkward. When you talk to an audience of kids, a fair number of those kids are also going to be socially awkward and not born to the stage. And so maybe for them, seeing me doing it and just being myself is reassuring.

Nikki Gamble:

We can only be ourselves at the end of the day.

I’m really interested in how this collection emerged because it is quite unique. Tell us a bit of the backstory.

JonArno Lawson:

So, I put together this book that you mentioned for Walker. The first version of it came out in 2008. I was supposed to gather English-speaking poets from around the world and have them contribute a poem. I suggested a poem, or they could veto it and choose their own, and then they would talk about how they wrote the poem or what the idea was behind it.

John and his wife, Grace Nichols, had put together a book called Caribbean Dozen. I liked their work, so I wanted them to contribute. We met briefly then, and then the following year we both had books nominated for the CLPE Award which is now the CLiPPA. So I came over for the ceremony and John’s book, The Young Inferno, won the award. It’s a brilliant book, also illustrated by Satoshi.

John won, and after the ceremony he said to me, ‘Why don’t you come out and celebrate with us?’ which was very nice. I was actually fine just going back to the hotel as I had one of my kids, Saul, with me. So John said to Saul, ‘ Are you sure you wanna go back to the hotel? I think you should come out and celebrate.’ I was sure Saul would say ‘no’ but he said ‘yes’.

We then had this lovely evening chatting. We discovered a lot of similar interests. After that we exchanged a lot of books through the mail, John and I both noticed that, even in terms of the poems we were writing, we had a lot of similar interests. So he said, ‘Wouldn’t it be interesting to do something collaborative?’

But then years passed until he had this very specific idea, which was Wise Up! Wise Down! John suggested we take poems of ours that are similar and put them side by side, almost like different versions or different ways of looking at the same thing. I thought it was a great idea and Walker Books was interested.

As we started working on it, John said, I have other ideas. ‘Why don’t I write a poem and then you write responsively?’ So the way it took shape was really through John.

Nikki Gamble:

Fascinating. And I’ve not seen a collection quite like it. To get the most out of it, I realised I was reading it differently. I know you can dip in and you could read any poem and it stands on its own, but I felt I got so much more by reading them sequentially.

JonArno Lawson:

Oh, that’s so interesting. I should also give Megan Middleton credit because she’s our editor and so some of how it came together in terms of the arrangement was through the editorial process.

Nikki Gamble:

I did ask if you would pick a poem from the collection to read for us. Would you do that?

JonArno Lawson:

Yeah. It’s called ‘A hand to hold instead of a dreadful headful’.

READS POEM

Nikki Gamble:

Short. Beautiful. Satoshi illustrates it really sensitively as well. Just suggestive without being too descriptive.

Why did you choose that one to read to us?

JonArno Lawson:

I think because for me it was one of these poems that came together very quickly. So I still feel excited when I come across it. I had written down in my notebook, ‘dreadful headful’. That seemed like a funny coincidence. And then I was thinking through other body parts, and I thought ‘earful, cheerful’. I was so excited to discover another one. And then, same with ‘harmful armful’, I couldn’t believe my luck. There were three little rhymes that worked so well together, and then the whole thing just seemed to come together magically.

That’s why I still feel so happy when I see it.

Nikki Gamble:

Does ‘A Hand to Hold’ relate to one of John’s poems, and in what way?

JonArno Lawson:

Yeah. John wrote a poem called ‘One Finger Can Catch Flea’, and so he’s gone over to a different body part. And in the poem, it’s about how the finger can do on its own and what the finger can’t do on its own. I find that sort of thing so relatable. It’s very concrete. You read a poem like that, and you just have to look at your finger, and you can picture it all.

Nikki Gamble:

I chose a poem with the juxtaposition of two poems in mind. The first is ‘Bat’s Decision’, one of John’s poems, and it’s followed by one of your poems, ‘The Position of Clam’.

JonArno Lawson:

READS POEM

Nikki Gamble: I really like that poem. And as I said, it relates to the one that comes previously. Had you read ‘Bat’s Decision’ before you wrote T’he Position of Clam?’ Is that how it worked?

JonArno Lawson:

No. In this case, they seem to work well as a pair. And it’s actually interesting too, because John is more of a bat and I’m more of a clam.

Nikki Gamble:

I didn’t want to say that, but it fits with what you were talking about earlier.

JonArno Lawson:

When I was writing the clam poem, I didn’t think I was putting myself into it, but then afterwards its obvious. Like the clam, I’m not even sure how I feel. John is much more out there, busy, and all over the place, just like a bat, sort of taking nectar from a thousand different places. He’s drawing from everywhereI am probably more like down at the bottom of the sea, and I get a little irritation and then work away at it and try to make a pearl.

Nikki Gamble:

Those differences do come through in the collection, and I think it gives it an interesting dynamic. I did wonder if I took the JA and the JL signatures off, each poem would I be able to tell every time which poem had been written by which poet? I might not get it right all of the time, but I do think there is a different feeling to them.

JonArno Lawson:

Yeah. It’s actually so good to talk about this because I hadn’t articulated any of this before.

Nikki Gamble:

And I think he quite often John ends his poems with a question.That seems to be a common thread through a lot of his poems

JonArno Lawson:

He’s not didactic. He has, I think, a very strong moral sense as a person, but he’s not telling you what to think. He’s throwing a bunch of questions and a bunch of images out there, and then leaving it up to you.

Nikki Gamble:

Let’s talk about children for a moment and children as readers of poetry.

When you write, do you have a child audience in mind? And would you consider children to be your ideal readers?

JonArno Lawson:

That’s a good question. I don’t really think in terms of a child audience when I’m writing. It’s more a case of whatever it is I’m doing takes the form it takes. Sometimes it seems to be more within reach of children, and then if older people enjoy it too, that’s great.

And then there are things I’ve written that are definitely not for kids. Not because they’re inappropriate, but because they don’t feel like they would be the ideal audience.

Usually, I pursue an idea as far as I can pursue it, and maybe partway through, I realise this is probably going to be for kids, but I don’t think I know a hundred per cent until I’m finished, till I feel like it’s done.

Nikki Gamble:

I don’t know if you’ve had the chance to read the other collections of poems that have been shortlisted. But some have a voice that is distinctly a child’s voice, speaking some of the poems, or an adult looking back on their childhood. That’s not the voice in Wise Up! Wise Down!, so it’s really interesting to hear how the notion of a reader can emerge through the writing.

I’ve got one final question for you: What poetry collection has risen to the top of your to-read pile?

JonArno Lawson:

It’s funny, just today I picked up a book of Anne Carson’s poetry. Up until recently, I hadn’t read her poems, but today I felt differently. I thought, ‘I feel safe reading this now.’.

Nikki Gamble:

That’s interesting. I heard her read her poetry years ago. I think it was at a conference in Calgary, so that’s where I came across her poetry. But I’m not sure how well she would be known here in the UK. So maybe this is an opportunity for you to tell us about some other great Canadian poets we should know here in the UK.

JonArno Lawson:

Probably my absolute favourite is bpNichol. He mostly wrote adult poetry, but he was very inventive. Unfortunately, he died quite young in the 1980s, at just 44, but he was very prolific. He pointed in a thousand different directions. He tried everything. Anyone who knew him was very inspired. He sounds like he was a lovely person, too, so I recommend anything written by him.

Nikki Gamble:

I’m going to research and see what I can find. It’s been an absolute pleasure to talk to you again.

Thank you so much for joining me today.

JonArno Lawson:

Thank you so much for having me.